Welcome to Riverbanks Encounter

Welcome to the Riverbanks Encounter blog. The primary purpose of this site is to serve as a resource for information on Hinduism, as gathered from a series of interviews with Hindus from all walks of life. All interviews were conducted in the summer of 1994 in the North Indian state of Uttar Pradesh with the assistance of Hindi-English translators.

The goal of the interviews was to gain insight into everyday practices and beliefs of the people we encountered in the cities of Haridwar, Allahabad, New Delhi, Varanasi, and Mussoorie.

The interviews are grouped by the cities in which they occured. All photos included in these pages were taken by the interviewers. Names of the persons interviewed have been omitted in respect of their privacy.


Haridwar interviews:

• Anandamayi Ashram Sadhu
• Anandamayi Ashram Devotee
• The Story of Anandamayi Ma
• A Teaching on Paramathma
• An American Devotee
  
• Astrology and Palmistry
  
• Syncretism and Sacred Food
  
• The Story of Guru Nanak

Allahabad interviews:

• The Founding of a Temple
• Priestly Duties
• The Worship of Hanuman
• Hindu Morality
• Offerings and Prayers
• Thoughts on the Hindu Religion
• Truth, the Mind and the Vedas
• Items used in Ritual and Worship
• The Significance of the Ganga

New Delhi interviews:

• Astrology and Vaishnavism
• Poverty and Community

Varanasi interviews:

• The Aghor Tradition
• The Story of Kina Ram
• Shakti Upasana
• Ashram Life
• The Burning Ghats
• The Worship of Durga
• Sin, Salvation, and the Gods
• From Hindu to Christian

Mussoorie interviews:

• Reflections of a Rishikesh Ritual

Reflections on a Rishikesh Ritual

Interview with an American university student
Mussoorie

It’s generally hard for me to explain my experience to myself because I was expecting to worry about ideas and concepts and gods there, and I ended up worrying about the food and about the water, what was clean to touch and where I should go. The whole town really smells and it’s hot and it gets me really tired. I leaned against a building by the banks of the Ganges I thought it was a place to rest and it smelled like urine so I really had to move over. It was really hard to find a place where I thought I could belong, because I really had no idea what my place was there. People are asking for money and you don’t know if you should give because then everybody else can just jump over you. So it’s confusing but it’s also very interesting because you don’t experience that anywhere else.

The ceremony was in a place specially consecrated for it where nobody else could go but the people partaking of it. There were about six people lined along the river on the steps with lamps, burning ghee that they were waving. And they had a towel over their hands where they were holding the lamps and it was being cooled with water by somebody else once in a while. It was strange because I didn’t really know what to expect, what was going on, why it was done, and what was going to happen afterwards.

There was a loudspeaker and somebody chanting over it, and at the same time they were waving these lights. And for a couple of seconds, everything — the sound and the people moving together, the chanting, and the lights — everything came together. It was a feeling that you could distinctly distinguish that there’s something happening. And then it just ended in a few seconds, just like that.

It wasn’t terribly powerful. It wasn’t some kind of image or revelation, but it was something that made you feel that you were there. And then all the people dispersed afterwards. No cries of joy, no hurrah. Everything went back to normal.

I was really there to see what I could find. I had no idea, because everything I experienced in my first few days was so confusing in terms of religious experience. I had no idea what to look for. My interest is religion, and that’s why I am here. I wanted to see how I could approach these things, and I came away not really knowing what to do, what to look for, or what to ask for; if I should pay attention to the flowers being offered or to the people offering them, or to what’s painted in the temple, what deity [is there], how its being prayed to, or how many people are there at one time. And I’m not sure how to put it together.

That experience was what seemed to pull everybody together — the tourists, the beggars, the people that were praying there, the kids and everybody else. For one moment the attention wasn’t placed on me, it was placed on something else that I was also looking towards. And I think I understood that moment in much the same manner, if not exactly, as all the other people did.

From Hindu to Christian

Interview with a Christian husband and wife
Varanasi


[“V” begins.] Previously we were both Hindus. We became Christians in 1992. We were married in 1987. My father was a professor at BHU and my mother was a housewife. We are four sisters and one brother. We had an academic atmosphere in our home. Of course, my father was a professor, so we were also brought up in that way. Education was emphasized. So I am a Ph.D. Then I got a job and now I’m teaching in a college. I teach English literature. I met my husband when I was working at the medical institute. That’s how we got married. This is my second marriage.

When we were Hindus we didn’t worship any one deity. We worshipped Shiva, Durga, Krishna, Ram, and all the Hindu gods. Because my father comes from the academic world, he doesn’t believe much in the rituals of Hinduism. Even though he is a Hindu, he has never gone to any temple or taken part in anything. He believed in reading the Hindu scriptures by himself at home. Whether it was the Gita or the Ramayana. But my mother was a traditional Hindu woman, and she believed in the traditional things. She took part in rituals and went to temples. We had idols in our home.

I also didn’t like the rituals. There were so many rituals and superstitions about certain things. I had my education in a convent. So that was one of the reasons I turned to Christianity. Right from my childhood, I was influenced by my teachers who were nuns. And as I grew up, I could compare. Somehow I found more sincerity in Christianity and I was more attracted to it than to Hinduism. Jesus appeared to me as a person who has no faults. Speaking about Hinduism, especially in Varanasi, culture and tradition play a very important role in the system.

My family still doesn’t know about my conversion to Christianity. So at this point, there is no question of an adverse reaction. If they were to know about it, I’m not sure if there would be any conflict or not. There might or there might not be. My mother has already passed away. My father is still alive and he’s pretty liberal, so he doesn’t interfere. Our marriage, also, was very untraditional and controversial. I belonged to a different community, a different caste. But they didn’t object. They supported us. My family background is totally different from the traditional norm. All my sisters are working. They are all in the field of education. So I don’t think my family would object much to my Christianity. They might be neutral. Or if they don’t like it, they probably wouldn’t say anything. The worst they would do is to keep silent.

There have been changes in my life since I became a Christian. I have more self-control. Before, if somebody tried to harm me, I always wanted to get revenge. I was easily irritated. So I have more control, of my emotions especially. The changes are more internal than outward.

[“A” begins.] My father is a traditional priestly brahmin. My forefathers were priests of the king. My city was the capital of a kingdom. So the king brought some brahmins and gave them a village of their own to stay in. That city is in Bihar. I grew up in that brahmin village. Each of us had a certain deity in our house. My family had Kali. The worship of Kali is a tantrik kind of thing. We worshipped Kali every day with mantras. We would recite those mantras at least 108 times every day. Then there were many pujas every month, such as the satyanarayan puja. There were many religious festivals as well, so my mother would make me fast and all those things. So I was doing everything, reading shlokas, such as Durga Sarasvati, which is the book of Durga, and one chapter of the Gita every day.

I also had to recite a two-line mantra called the gayatri mantra. Gayatri is supposed to be the power of the sun. I had to recite this mantra at least 108 times a day. I also had to recite other mantras relating to Shiva, Vishnu, and Ram. The purpose of these mantras was nothing. They don’t know. They just have to do it. A child’s head is shaved at three years of age, and after reaching the age of eight, he takes the sacred thread ceremony. From then on, it is his duty to do all these things. The religion is very much tied to the culture. They don’t really have significant faith or belief in anything. They do it for the sake of doing it, and to get money. Their lives are miserable. They are not happy. They are poor people. So they want something which can shape their hopes.

My upbringing was alright, but when I saw the society around me, I was not satisfied with the way it was. I started reading books. All of the Hindu gods have been born of various ascetics and saints. For most of them, birth usually involved something unusual, such as coming through an illicit relationship, or from a horse or a cow, something like that. These gods are involved in doing bad things, like Shiva going for a woman, and Indra going for a woman or raping a woman. And people imitate this. The people of my village do this. They also drink palm wine, and they take any woman they want. They would say these people were untouchables and they wouldn’t eat with them or drink with them. But at night, the old brahmins would go and have sex with them. It’s still done, it’s a business kind of thing.

So I started reading books and thinking. I thought, “This is not fair.” I used to go on a pilgrimage every year, traveling on foot 70 kilometers to a Shiva temple, through mountains, forests and rivers in Bihar. I would walk barefoot on the road. On the way, I would see that some people would be traveling along, looking at women and having bad thoughts about them. There were many saints who would take advantage of the situation on the way to the Shiva shrine. Then I thought that God was not affecting them. He was not helping them. In fact, he was not helping me. I would also do bad things. Even though I did everything like chanting the Gita and so on, still I was getting into smoking and drinking, and thinking about women. So God was not helping me.

I first heard of Christianity by means of an ad in the paper which offered a correspondence course to learn the Bible. So I filled out the form and sent it in. They started sending me literature. I like music, and I used to keep a radio with me all the time. I used to listen to the radio while studying. I would get up every morning about 4:30 or 5. So one morning around 6 o’clock, I was listening to the shortwave radio and I heard some songs. At first I thought it was Hindu, because the words were in Hindi, and I liked the songs. But then I heard them saying things about learning the Bible.

I began to listen regularly, and whatever I learned I tried to practice in my village. So people didn’t like me. Even my parents hated me. My mother said, “Oh, he’s a Christian.” I didn’t know the meaning of this word kristan. I thought it was something bad that they were calling me. So she predicted that I would become a Christian. The villagers used to notice that I would eat with untouchables. Our maid-servant was an untouchable, and yet I would ask her to bring me some water. I wouldn’t ask my mother or my sister.

When I read the Bible I found that it was very practical. You can achieve those things and you won’t have any problem, like feeling dissatisfied. Suppose I am angry and then I have to sit for a puja, like the time when my grandmother died, my father’s aunt. He appointed me as the lighter of the funeral pyre, and I was supposed to listen to a reading of one of the Puranas, which talks about ghosts and what happens to the one who died. I was to do this for nine or ten days. At that time I was young, only 15 years old.

There was a woman there who loved me. I was not in love with her, but she loved me. So she would sit there in the group while I was listening to the pandit chanting the puran about the spirit and what happens. And while I was listening, my thoughts would be on that woman. She was there in my mind. So then I thought it was not helping me, listening to this stuff. It should help me and change me, so I wouldn’t do these things. So then the Bible helped me, and slowly I started getting rid of these things. It was not my fault, but they would make use of me, these women and girls. I never went for them. I was the sort of person who would say yes every time, no matter what a person said to me. I would accept it and believe it. This is my weakness, even now. When a stranger comes and says, “Oh, I will do this for you and that for you,” I tend to believe it. Then I get cheated.

In 1977 when I was 18, my father was seriously ill, and there was no one to go to him. I did not know his address, so I could not correspond with him. Then I said that if all I had been reading is true, and Jesus is really there, then I should pray to him every day. So I said, “Okay, if you are there, tonight you must listen to my prayer and help my father.” Then I heard the news that my father had been alright for three days, and I thought, “This is wonderful.”

The average Hindu thinks that Christianity is bad. They admit that Jesus is God, that He is a good god. But at the same time, they don’t want another person’s god. They want their own god to dominate. They like Jesus, but they don’t like Christians. That’s the problem. They know that if they accept Christians, then those Christians will turn good Hindus into good Christians. Many Hindus are not really Hindus. My friends and people I know are not really Hindus. They’re not doing anything to make them Hindu. It’s just by caste and living in society, and by their surname, that they are Hindu. If these people are taught well, they can become Christians. Hindu tradition is like that. They want supremacy and dominance over others. So that’s why they accepted Buddha as the eleventh incarnation of Vishnu, just so they could absorb Buddhism into Hinduism. Christianity is not yet incorporated into Hinduism, because it came from foreign countries. Buddha was from India. There is a book written in Hindi which says that Christianity is krishna-niti — the policies of Krishna. It was written by a well-known historian. He says that foreigners cannot pronounce krishna-niti, so that’s where they get Christianity.

If you are a Christian then you have to do certain things. You have to be a man of action. You cannot just say, “Don’t steal, don’t cheat,” while at the same time you are taking money out of people’s pockets. That is Hinduism. The thing is just in the mouth not in the heart. As a Christian one has to go against the patterns and traditions of the society, against superstition and the worshipping of a god who will let you do whatever you want. Like going to a temple and offering flowers, water and other things, and then going out and cheating and murdering. Dacoits, for example, who are robbers, are worshippers of the goddess Kali. They kill someone and they say, “Jay Kali.” In her name they kill. It is convenient to get help from gods in doing bad things. Some Hindus think that if you take the name of a god, you can do anything. But I don’t think that’s true. Hindus realize that Christ is perfect, but they still want something else, some idol.

Living here is not a problem for Christians. Hindus accept whatever you are or wherever you have come from. But Muslims will not accept you. You cannot live next door to a Muslim if you are a Hindu or Christian. But Christians and Hindus can live alongside each other, as long as the Christians don’t interfere with the Hindus or tell them that what they are doing is bad. If you let them do whatever they want, they won’t say anything. A Christian can have some kind of witness to Hindus, but you see, most Hindus are uneducated. Even if they have a Ph.D., they are uneducated. They know their own subject, political science or sociology, but they don’t know the reality, what things are there, the truth. It’s good to try to be a role model for them. The people I meet, every time I tell them I am a Christian and they accept it, they try to ask why I became a Christian. The thing is that they are earning their livelihood because of being a Hindu, so it’s difficult. They don’t live like me. The shopkeeper may know I’m right, but if he stops being a Hindu, then people will not go to his shop. They’ll say, “Oh, this is a Christian shop.”

The culture and fear are what keep Hindus from turning to Christ. They don’t know what happens after death, if they become Christian. Then there is the love for money. These are the three things. No Hindu can think about anything without money. Everything is in terms of money. I am able to talk to Hindus because I know the right language to use. In witnessing to Hindus, lifestyle and the way of worship are important. But I don’t think they can be separated. See, life means everything — prayers and thoughts, etc. Otherwise we would be animals, eating, drinking and living in a house, trying to be successful.

If someone is really a true Christian, then there is no difficulty. The problem with Indians is that when they become Christians, they don’t lose their Hinduity. Those features are there. That’s why people think, “What’s the difference between this Christian guy and any Hindu?” But if you are a Christian in your actions and your thoughts, then you won’t have any problems. I don’t have any problems, not at all. You need to go to a God who can change you and also change your society. And you need a God who will accept you as you are, rather than saying you have to be something, and then you will be accepted. Hindus know this because they go to temples, and when they do, they have to wear clean clothes and take flowers in their hands. If you have no money, the priest will not like it. But if you give good donations, arti and dakshina, then you will be accepted in the temple. So money is the way.

Ninety percent of Hindus say they are spiritual because they are doing certain things and following traditions. They don’t have faith. That’s why they have so many stories and books. If they were real Hindus and were really spiritual, it would be different. Many persons go to offer Ganga jal to Shiva. On the way they may find a donkey who is dying of thirst. It would be a rare person who would think that, “Oh, our holy books say that God is everywhere, so God is in the donkey too. So I should take some of my Ganga water and give it to the donkey. In this way I can satisfy Shiva. Then I can go and offer my Ganga jal to the deity.” But very few people think that way. That’s why there’s a story in one of the holy books about Shiva coming in the incarnation of a donkey, and testing people to see if they would give their water to him when he was in need. But most of the people failed. So only one or two percent of Hindus were that way. And that’s still true, only one or two percent of the people are like that.

There are good things in Hinduism, but the priests and people who have vested interests have changed it. Popular Hinduism is a corrupted system. It’s a free-for-all. Whatever you want, you do. If you have money you are successful and good. You worship sinners and rich robbers, who don’t carry life and are not truly spiritual. That’s why I think that Hindus don’t believe in God. They believe in these material things. In the ashram where we went yesterday, I saw one of the sadhus driving a Maruti car. They have cars, bank accounts and motorcycles. So you’re a sadhu just to have these things.

Sin, Salvation, and the Gods

Interview with a devotee
near the Golden Vishvanath Temple, Varanasi


I am 16. 1 belong to a Brahmin family from Varanasi. This is one of the holiest cities of Hinduism. What makes it holy is the temple of Shiva, this temple. Our family has lived in Benares for the last 300 years. This city is 3,000 years old. I want to stay in Benares. Delhi and Bombay are running cities. People are running like the Japanese. When Japanese come here, they can’t stay in one place. If they want to see a temple, they see the temple and then they just run. They don’t have time to put on their shoes. They take their shoes in hand and just run away. They think that maybe someone will catch them or will try to take their money, or try to sell them something. So these people don’t have time. If, in Delhi, you stand somewhere and ask anyone for directions to a place, they don’t have time to tell you. If it is Bombay they want money for telling you the way. I have seen other cities, like Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta, but I have never found any as good as Benares.

Here, people are happy. You can see that if someone is sleeping somewhere, they sleep for a long time. If he goes to sit on a ghat, then he is just sitting there for six or seven hours. Always they don’t worry. It’s normal to worry for family, for life or for food, but after that, people are happy. You can find people who will talk to you. But in other places, they are happy in themselves. For one man, the whole world is himself. He is busy in himself. But here, people want to be with others. I can’t say about beggars whether they are happy or not. Maybe I am also not happy. Food, clothing, family — these can’t make you happy. You have to feel happy on the inside. If they think they are happy, then they are happy. I cannot say whether someone is sad or happy. I might say that you are happy, but the fact may be that you are sad inside. Some people have to beg, so they are beggars. If some time I have to beg, then I will beg. I think it is possible to change [beggars]. Someone can help them, but I cannot say to someone, “Go and help him.” First I have to go and help them. I am trying to do what I can. What more can I do? I cannot clean the world by getting rid of them. I cannot throw them out. They are everywhere, a big quantity. Everywhere you can find beggars. It’s difficult to root them out.

You know the Shiva temple? This temple [pointing to the golden-domed temple across from the shop] was under our family. My father was the owner of this temple, but in 1983 there was trouble. Some people stole the gold from inside and the public demanded too much. So now this temple is under the government’s control. There is much income in the temple. A lot of people come from all over India. It is an important temple for Hindus. They bring a lot of offerings to Shiva. So the government thought, “If we get the temple, we will have much money from the temple.” So now the temple is under the government and all the income goes to the government. Before, we were living on the income of the temple. We had our food, our money and our property from the temple. Now, everything goes totally to the government. We get nothing from it. This has been the case for the last ten years.

We have a case in the supreme court against the government. There was a scandal in the temple when gold was stolen. Then the government told the people that our family was not enough to mange the temple. My family was managing the temple very well and the people are now not satisfied with the government system. After we lost everything, we started this business. That was three years ago, in 1991. We bought this ourselves, the government did not help us. They don’t want to help us. So now among the local people, nobody goes inside the temple. You have to ask the people and they will tell you the same thing. Maybe some are not totally with us, but mostly they will agree. Now they go to other temples. There are many other important temples as well which are not very famous, but still, they are important. So people believe in Shiva. If someone believes in God, then for them a stone is God. But if you don’t believe, even if God is standing in front of you, you will say it’s nothing. So they go to different temples, not to this one.

The lingam of Shiva which is in this temple is called the jyoti lingam. There are only 12 such lingams in the whole of India. There are 12 “most important” places for Hindus all over the world. This is one of them. That’s why it’s very, very important. This one is called the Vishvanath temple. Most of the people come this way to visit the Kashi Vishvanath. Also, this is an old city, situated on the banks of the Ganga, and it has good ghats where people can bathe easily. But now it is not so important. At one time it was very important. There were many schools, temples and ashrams. Very gentle-cultured people used to live here. People were coming from all over the world to learn things from them. Geniuses were here. But it is not in the same condition now. It is also getting modern, which means that its importance is decreasing.

Maybe sometime this will also become an economic center, and everyone will be busy here for money. Before, there were people such as sadhus, sants, mahatmas, and sages — people like that. People used to enjoy ganja and bhang. They were happy. They used to pray to Shiva. So the people of India used to place great importance on coming here to visit these spiritual men, where great souls lived. Everyone wanted to come to this place. So it was like a tradition. If their grandfather came, then they also wanted to come. But people who follow the tradition today and come here, they find it’s nothing like it used to be. But now it’s changed. There are shops here, houses here, hotels here and businesses here. Then they go home and say, to their son or grandson, “I am not going to go there again.” Gradually, people have stopped coming. There are fewer and fewer people, compared to the past.

Still people come to some places in large numbers. Like in Allahabad, there is the sangam where the Maha Kumbh is held every twelve years. About one million people come there every day during that time. Every sixth year, there is a little Kumbh. Lots of people come for that too. I myself have been to the Maha Kumbh, three or four years ago. There was nothing to see there, just people all around. The whole earth was covered. You could only see people. And if you went to bathe in the river, you could hardly see the water. There were so many people all around. I just went to take a holy dip in the sangam. When we were coming back, it was very difficult to make our way through the sea of people. But we came out somehow. It was a good experience to see so many people together. It was busy, but I felt good. The whole atmosphere there was holy and everyone showed an acceptance from their heart, of the camp. It was an emotional experience, being able to take a holy dip there and get a lot of punya. This is the opposite of sin, and they go to collect it, to reserve a seat in heaven. If you do a lot of sins in life, you are going to book a seat in hell.

Now, this is a holy month. There is special worship of Shiva in this month. This is the month of savan. The rainy season, monsoon, starts in this month. From all over the country they come by foot, pilgrims. They come to this temple and they go to Badrinat, in the mountains. These are the pilgrim places. The Kashmiri militants have created some problems for pilgrims, so they cannot go to Amarnat. They said to the government, “If you don’t give us something,” like they were blackmailing the government. “If you do not do this or that for me, then we will not let any pilgrims come to Amarnat. We will stop them in the middle and kill them. It’s like that.” So, people come to this temple from all over India, but the local people go to other places, because they don’t want to come here.

Now our family goes to this temple because we believe in Shiva. It is not a question of money or property, or of wanting gold. We believe in Shiva, we go to Shiva. When we pray we ask for good luck. We believe, and Shiva gives us good luck. In front of you, we are sitting here in this place of Shiva. Those who know some system, some method of praying, they go to Shiva and practice this method. They chant some hymns, some mantras. For others, it is different. They don’t know anything, they just believe. They just pray to Shiva, saying, “Oh Shiva, you are great. Do this for me.” They believe Shiva arranges everything for them. It depends on the people as to what offering they bring. Some may bring lots of offerings. They may offer gold or much money to the temple. But if someone comes and they don’t have very much, they bring flowers, some sweets, some incense sticks, and they offer these to Shiva. They bring some Indian scents like chandan and offer these to Shiva. The offerings may be taken to the priest’s house where they are eaten or used there. Or if the cleaners of the temple throw the used offerings onto the roof, if there is something edible in that, then the monkeys eat. The rest goes to the Ganges.

It’s not necessary to go to the temple in order to pray to Shiva. But people go there and they think that is Shiva. Something visible is there. You can pray out in wild or remote areas, or you can go searching for the place of Shiva. But still, people go to the temple to pray. There are many gods. It is written in the Rig Veda, the oldest book of the world written in Sanskrit, that there are spirits of brahma, the brahma who created the whole world. In the Rig Veda it is written that we have 84 billion gods and goddesses. So it is not possible to pray to whomever we want. We have some main gods and goddesses. Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, these are the three most important. The way we choose which god to worship comes from generations. It is family tradition that was started a long time ago, maybe in the tenth generation, further back from us. These ancestors started worshipping Shiva, so we worship Shiva. If you go to Bengal, then you will find that the Bengali people are devotees of power, Durga and Kali. These are the goddesses of power. And they are called shakt. Shakti means power, and so they are called shakt.

We can change to a different deity if we want, but for that we need a diksha. Any respected guru can give us diksha and knowledge. He could get us into the worship of that god. Then we will be able to pray there. There is no problem with switching gods as far as my family is concerned, because the gods are all the same. We follow Shiva, but that doesn’t mean that we fight with those who follow Vishnu or Brahma. We pray to everyone. We go to Brahma temples or Vishnu temples, but Shiva is still the main god for us. Like people have a family doctor or a family lawyer, so also they have a family god. So our family god is Shiva. So we prepare everything we are going to start or do by first praying to Shiva. There are special days for worship, but also many people go every day and pray, three times a day. It’s like that. I don’t do that. but others do. We can pray in the house. Those who are able to go to a temple can do so. Not every one is so lucky that they have a temple in the side of their house [the shopkeeper’s home and shop is located directly across the narrow street from the temple]. So they pray in the house. Many people have a temple inside their house, so they can worship there. But if someone is not able, they can go to the temple. We are able to go to the temple because it is in the side of our house. I go to the temple once a week. That’s on Monday, the day of Shiva.

Every day in the morning, after taking a bath, we pray to the sun and we pray to the river Ganga. In order to get blessing for a good day, we pray to all the gods. In the night, before sleeping, we read a few parts of the Ramayana. We do the reading together, everybody, as a family. It’s like a song, the Ramayana. A few people are reading together and it sounds nice. That’s what people think who don’t understand. The reason is that it looks nice. It is difficult to understand. If you are reading the Ramayana and someone doesn’t know, it is difficult to understand. It is written in the avadhi language, the language of the Ayodhya area. We can understand it because we’ve been reading it for a long time. The person who taught us to read it also told us the meanings. My father and my grandfather teach me. It comes like that. My mother also teaches.

In festivals, during special times of worship, or sometimes for a pilgrimage, we go as a family. Sometimes we go on a pilgrimage to Rameshvaram. It’s in the South, at the southern tip of India. There is a Shiva temple there. In the North also, in the mountains of the Himalaya, we have gone to Kailash. It is the place of Shiva, where Shiva lives. And in the West there is a place called Dvarka, the place of Krishna. Krishna built this city there. Now people believe that it is under the sea, and they go there. And in the East, there’s a place called Kamrug Ka Makhya, in Assam. That’s also very famous, and people go there. In the whole country, there is a different place in each of the four directions. These were founded by Shankaracharya. He was the man who tried to unite all the people. He tried to create unity among all the Hindus, so he founded all four pilgrim places in the East, West, North and South. All Hindus have to go to these places. Those who are able surely do go. We go often as a family.

[Concerning the small shrine in the shop similar to a miniature god-house.] These are like shrines. They are placed in shops. This one is of Ganesh. So that is the place of Ganesh and Lakshmi. Lakshmi is the goddess of wealth, and you know that Ganesh is the god of wisdom and good luck. So people put them in their shops for good luck. They have to give them a place, so they make it in the shape of a small temple or shrine and put it there. This is so that we may have blessing on our business, and we pray to them every day. Before starting business early in the morning, we pray to them, asking them to give us a good day. When we pray, we use mantras.

We believe the gods hear us because we believe that we have God inside us. Everybody has God inside. If we speak something, we hear ourselves, and so God is hearing that. The reason we don’t pray to ourselves is because we cannot see inside. If we could see inside, then we would be God. So if I’m not able to see inside, I have to make a form of what is inside me. We make a form in front of us and we say, “Oh, this is the one that is inside me. Okay, you are there, so listen.” We believe that he is inside, but we see him also in front of us. Many people do not worship any images or statues. Everyone has his own method. It is our culture. We have statues, so we pray to them. Sometimes we have symbols, such as the Shiva lingam, and we pray to it. That symbol actually becomes a god. Oh yes, if that is a symbol of God, that is God.

As far as my hopes are concerned, I hope for a good life. You yourself know what is a good life — just to get a joyful life, with blessings from the gods, that they won’t get angry but will give us good luck, that they will give us guidance so we will go in the right way, that we won’t miss the way. The right way is the way that goes to God. It is a difficult way. The manner in which we recognize that way is by learning from our gurus and our parents. Yes, I too have a guru. Our gurus teach us how to go in the good way, and which goes to God. There is the way of brahmacharya. There are many different rules, which people cannot follow easily. It’s very difficult. Now, these difficult paths are not very popular. People go on any path, whichever way they want. Someone is looking to go abroad, someone is seeking to be a criminal, and someone is looking for gold. It’s like that. And the way which our guru says to go, it is very difficult to go on that way. Sometimes it’s to leave one’s house or one’s family.

The way to decide which path is right is to use our own minds. If we feel on the inside that it’s the right way, then it’s the right way, because some people who are going on the wrong way, they will feel one day that it is the wrong way. It depends on me. Others can guide me, but they cannot pull me. If I have bad luck, then even if I try 100 times or 1,000 times, I will not be able to find the right way, if I believe in luck. Many people do not believe in luck. They say, “It’s nothing. We can do anything by relying on ourselves.” But they never got a good time in their lives, because they did not have good luck. They start anything and it goes bad.

[During this segment of the interview, numerous bells began to ring. They are used for waking up the god for his lunch time.] Now it is 12 o’clock and this is the lunch time of Shiva. So the priests offer to Shiva rice, dal, vegetables, fruits, and milk for him to have for lunch. Probably you can hear the sound of mantras and hymns. People believe that Shiva is always in a happy mood. Sometimes he has bhang. So he is happy and sleepy. So they ring the bell, saying, “Oh Shiva, please wake up.” And after that, they start saying whatever they want. When they pray, sometimes it is a request, “Oh Shiva, give me this.” They start that after ringing the bell. Shiva is usually sleeping in the night. Early morning, around 4 o’clock when the temples open, the priests pray, “Oh Shiva, please wake up. Now it’s morning, please wake up.” Also, there are special mantras for that. People make music with the oboe and drums. And so at that time, Shiva opens his eyes and people give him a bath. That’s the morning, and then this is the time of lunch.

When Shiva is asleep, he is not aware of what is going on in the world. When he is sleeping, he doesn’t know. That’s why people have to ring a bell when something goes wrong. In the United States right now, people may be thinking that Shiva is sleeping, while here we are thinking he is eating. It’s different for different people. If there are people on the moon, they will be thinking that Shiva is sleeping for six months. Who is right? Everyone is right at their place. I am not going to call somebody on the phone in the United States and say to him, “Hey, Shiva is eating now, so you also give him food.” No, I will not do that. When he wants to give Shiva food, he can do so. When I want to give Shiva food, I can do so. If I want, I can go at 2 o’clock in the night while Shiva is sleeping, and give him food. This is our trust, our belief, that Shiva is like us, eating, drinking and sleeping. If somebody in the United States is so much of a fool, then he will be thinking that you are sleeping right now in India, but if he is an educated gentleman, then he will know that it is daytime here when it is night time there. If someone doesn’t know this system, then they will think the people in the United States are waking up now, that they are also talking just like we are. But in fact, you know that they are sleeping now maybe.

[Concerning sin and salvation.] What is a sin? Anything you do which is not from your heart. Your heart says it is wrong, but you are going to do it, maybe in greediness, or with a bad attitude or under pressure. That is a sin. Everyone can do sins every day. If you do any sin, you will feel it inside yourself. You don’t have to listen to anyone telling you that you have committed a sin. You will feel it within yourself. “I did wrong, I shouldn’t have done it.” That’s a sin. But people are doing it every day. Maybe every day you make a lot of mistakes and then you feel, “That was wrong. You didn’t have to do it.” If you read the Gita, you will see that there are a lot of sins committed by the gods. Of course gods commit sins, and they have to pay for it. They get punishment. Who punishes the gods? Their souls and their hearts punish them. Sometimes when someone has done a very bad thing and their heart tells them that they have done so, then they go to commit suicide. Every god has stories about them in which they have committed sins and were punished for that. They got a hard life, a bad time. There is no god who has not committed any sins. [Further conversation, off the record, revealed that the interviewee acknowledges Christ as the only living being, physical or spiritual, who was without sin. All other beings have been corrupted by sin — gods and non-deities alike.]

How can you be saved? It is not different. We cannot help sinning. We cannot do only good things. They go together. You have to do bad as well as good. It is like day and night. If there is no darkness, then there is no importance of light. So also, if there is no sin, then there is no importance of good deeds. If you commit some little sin and then you go out and do a good deed, then people will count that as a good deed. [“Some people seem almost completely good while others seem almost completely evil. So where is the balance for them?”] There is not any balance. Others decide whether someone seems good or someone seems bad. Others have to decide that. That’s why some people give bribes to others, saying, “Balance us in terms of good and evil.”

[The interviewers asked, “How can light and darkness dwell together when light banishes darkness?”] It goes from moment to moment. Sometimes you are light, sometimes you are dark. But if there is no dark, then there is no importance of light. If there is dark, then you will feel, “Yes, now I am feeling the light inside.” So you have to keep something dark so that it can be covered up when light comes. If you have done any sin, then you will do some good things. If the gods are not free from sins, then how can we be? There are no sinners in heaven. That’s why there are two places: heaven and hell. There is a judge who will count our works, whether they are good or bad. Who is the judge? He is Dharmraj, also called Yamraj, the god of death. He takes the soul to court and there is a man there who is also a god, but he is under Dharmraj. His name is Chitragupt. He gives the total record of the life of the man, the human, who is going to die. He sees the whole record and after that, the judge decides if the soul has to go to hell or heaven.

People are counted as sinners or non-sinners based on an average of their life. Someone has big sins and someone has little sins. If someone has big sins, he has to go to hell because he is not able to cover up his sins in the next incarnation. If someone has little sins, he is sent back to earth and then has a chance to cover up his sins in the next incarnation. If I have only a little sin, then I have a chance to come back to earth and get rid of that sin as well. It will be a life in which I will seek to do all things good, so that I will get heaven. Those who come back to get rid of their little sins will not have a chance to do anything else except worship Shiva, or whatever deity they follow. And they will spend their whole lives chanting the name of God. In this way they will not have a chance to do anything, good or bad. And if they do anything, they will do it in remembrance of the name of God.

Even if they begin to do something bad and then remember the name of God, then that thing is no longer bad. Even if you are going to kill someone, before you do it, if you remember the name of God and you say, “Oh God, I am going to kill someone. Please take care of me,” then he will excuse you. But there are many people who think that God is nothing, so when they do any work, they do it on their own and do not take the name of God. That’s why it’s right for such people to go to hell. So one can be allowed to do anything if he takes the name of God before he does it, even killing or raping a woman, and such things. But the one who has the presence of mind to remember the name of God is not going to want to do such things. I don’t think he’s going to do that kind of thing. Everything is systematic. It’s not just taking the name of God in a shallow way.

Some people will chant the name of God and then kill a Muslim, but it’s not like that. It is not something to show, but rather to feel. If you take the name of God and you feel it, then it’s okay. If you feel, then you will be sincere in thinking about the god before doing any action or taking any step. Then you will not have any chance to do any bad work. Then God will guide you, and when he does, he will not bring you to the wrong way. You will go on the right way. And it’s not the right way to kill people and rape women, as everyone knows. How will you know what is bad? You will feel it when you do something bad.

The Worship of Durga

Interview with a priest's son
Durga Temple, Varanasi

I am the son of the priest. This is one of the most popular temples in the whole world. There are eight or nine pujaris present in this temple. No one else works here. This is the first place for Durga, the oldest temple for Durga. The goddess Durga is siddh pith. This means that she is here all the time.

In a single year there are two nauratris. These are held six months apart. During this time, the goddess Durga is worshipped. The time nauratri is held depends on the moon and sun, and our Hindu calendar. Usually, it is once in September-October, and once in March-April. During this festival, by doing aradhna-puja of Durga, we do something and gain something. Each day has its own importance. So this festival also has its own importance, and during this time people don’t sleep. This is a night festival. According to our religious writings, any religious work or duty performed at night immediately becomes siddh.

This is a good rainy season. It is very auspicious. There are 12 months in the Hindu calendar. In the sixth month, the rainy season comes and we have a month-long Hindu festival. It is going on right now. Those who have been married during the year come to get darshan during savan. Tuesday is a special day of the week for worship. Saturday is not a special day, generally, but for the worship of Hanuman, it has some special significance. Tuesday is for the goddess Durga. On the other days of the week, kriya takes place. For those who especially wish to perform kriya according to niyam, all these are the same. These people come every day, regularly, and so special days don’t matter to them.

There are 33 crore devtas. Each and every one of them has given his complete power in order to create new powers. This new power, which is a composite creation of the powers of all the devtas, is called Durga. The puja system given to use in our scriptures is a nirakar system. The sakar system is an intermediary way of worshipping ultimate reality. For example, when we say, “This form is Durga,” we will worship her right here. In the nirakar system, bhagvan and bhagvati are worshipped, especially bhagvati. Bhaghvati is really yoni, which is the female generative power, her sexual organ. So, it is yoni which is worshipped. Yoni is the creative force for the whole creation. You and I, and everything originate from there. So, we worship yoni as the birthplace of everything.

In the Tantrik scriptures of Durga, sexual intercourse is looked at as a form of entertainment. And over here, it is a thing related to puja. For us, puja is of five types: wine, women, fish, meat and mantras. A naked woman comes willingly to a raji to be “consumed or drunk.” Her yoni is worshipped as the manifestation of bhagoti. It is not done here because it would become a big show in this place. All of this is done in secluded places. Or, people do it on the other side of the Ganga. It also takes place in some temples in Assam. I have performed this ritual myself. The deed is very effective, guaranteed to succeed in achieving one’s religious aspirations. If it is unsuccessful, the man is guaranteed to go insane immediately. If the woman is caused to suffer in any way, that is another indication that the ritual will be unsuccessful. My paternal uncle used to do this ritual on the other side of the Ganga. If you have time, I will show you the whole thing. This is not a day for it, but we can arrange it on the appropriate day. [Another man interjects] No, only puja takes place. [Priest’s son says] Intercourse does take place to please the woman. And the woman is pleased, the goddess. And whatever requests you have made to the goddess will be granted.

My father’s duties as a priest involve doing pujas for four hours. In relation to this place, his responsibilities are not great because so many people come that it takes a lot of time, so one man cannot carry the responsibility. So he is involved in supervising the whole thing. But others do the pujas. In the seventh month, on certain special days, he himself performs the evening worship. In my father’s absence I watch over things, and everything goes well. My work involves making sure that things go smoothly here for the devotees. Every day about 500 to 3,000 devotees come to this temple, less on normal days because the number changes depending on pilgrims. Pilgrims come in buses — five to ten busloads — who come and wash themselves, both inside and outside. They travel in groups from the same places. They come from all over India, like Madras, and places like that. During dashehra four to six thousand pilgrims a day come to the temple. This is the climax of the Durga puja. All kinds of people come to worship here. Those who are in comfort and prosperity, as well as those who are in sorrow and difficulty, come. Those who have lost something, and those who have gained something, both types can be found here. All people have equal access. It is up to our discretion as to whether we give any special concessions to a devoted person who is in need of help in performing some particular kriya.

This temple is special because it was built on 20 bisa yantras. Soon after Durga was created she came to this place. This is her main place. She came here immediately after her war with the demons. When King Sudarshan helped Durga in the war, she gave him the privilege of asking for a favor. And his request was that the goddess should come and live in his kingdom and nowhere else. So that’s why she came to this spot and made it her main abode. The devtas created Durga in svarg. Any place which is dedicated to her, via a mantra and the erection of an idol, becomes one of her dwelling places. But this place has a special guarantee of her presence. When a man begins to perform a worship kriya in this place, then he gains knowledge of what is truly the reality in front of him. In the hot season, sweat can be seen coming from the idol. The idol here is different from other idols. The splendor that emanates from it is different, makes it unique. The influence of the bhagvans is on this idol, so its arti is genuine. That influence actually shines from the face of those who worship. The mantras which are used to reside in the idol are based upon her own doctrine. The mantras have a frequency which is in harmony with Durga and in them the beat, the tone, and the rhythm are very important. Actually, science is very much behind in this whole area of frequency and sound. Mantras are very advanced in this area. Research is going on in America concerning mantras. People are trying to find out why the frequencies in them bring healing to sick people and benefit to people in general.

This temple is associated with the kund [the bathing pool next to the temple]. In early times, every public place of religious significance had a bathing tank built near it, because there were not many natural bathing places available. The goal was not to inconvenience the people when they come, because people desire to take a ritual dip as part of their religious observance. In olden times, these tanks were connected to the Ganga River. There is no special religious benefit to be gained from bathing in this kund.

On the altar in the middle of the outer court, goats are sacrificed. These things have been built for people to sit on. In olden times, this place used to be jungle. The only place people could sit was inside the temple. Here, a Shiv temple used to stand, but later it was torn down. Now, the nandi has been moved here [in a small room in the outer court]. These are the remains of the Shiva temple, and puja to Shiva is still performed here. Normally, Durga and Shiva temples are built next to each other because Durga is the wife of Shiva, but for us, that is not necessary. So we only have a Durga temple — although it is true that wherever Durga is, Shiv definitely will be attracted to that place. Inside these small temples, the three goddesses, Kali, Lakshmi, and Saraswati, are present.

The outer cover [of the inner sanctum] is made of silver. In our place, the worship of idols does not take place, only the charan is worshipped. Puja takes place with closed eyes, not open eyes. Everything that is here is charan. We concentrate on the svarup of the deity.

[Concerning the numerous monkeys running around the temple grounds] The monkeys are around here because there used to be forest here. It was only after 1960 that the forest was cleared. They are fed by people and they also find food for themselves. The monkeys are not worshipped, but when they die, they are given samadhi.

The Burning Ghats

Interview with a dhom gentleman
Harish Kund, Varanasi

[The name of the ghat where this interview took place is Harish Kund. On the way to the ghat is a road leading down to the cremation sites. There is an electric crematorium here, which the government has urged people to use. Tradition, however, is difficult to change, and burnings with wood remain the norm. As we walked this road, we saw one body being taken in for burning. It was the body of a woman covered in gold-colored, glittery garments. A group of men were carrying the wooden cot on which she was placed. A crowd followed, singing and chanting. At the time of the interview, the river was near flood stage. Normally, burnings take place closer to the river, but due to the high water, they took place in the village lanes. The residents of Harish Kund live together in a tightly-packed village by the river in Varanasi. A winding path leads up to the houses, a short distance away from the smoldering ash of burnings. Residents say that about every half hour a burning takes place, but that varies depending on the frequency of deaths.]

When we burn bodies, the first thing we do is bring the wood. After that, the funeral pyre is constructed. Then the person whose relative has died bathes in the Ganges, and takes fire from the constantly-burning flame, and lights the pyre. Then we wash the body, perform a ritual offering of flowers and other things, and then they bum it. The ashes are thrown in the Ganga. After burning, we look in the funeral pyre for anything of value, such as gold or silver articles.

Burning the body here [outside, on the ground] means that you can see it burning right in front of you. Cremating in the electric crematorium means that one forgets whose bones are whose and what’s being burned. But here, there is the immediacy of being able to see what’s happening, and what little is left is thrown into the river. There are ten types of bones and ten things that burn. In the electric crematorium, you don’t get this. Look, this is right in front of you. You can be right there with your whole party and you can be involved in making sure that your own relative is being offered to the river. Wealthy people or poor people, both can go to the crematorium. People who go to the electric crematorium don’t observe tradition and religion, but people who come here do observe those things. It used to be that the body would be burned here and Ganga pollution would bring filth to the river. That’s why both poor and rich go to the electric crematorium.

The soul of the dead person leaves the body and goes off to param athma. It goes straight up, it goes to heaven, even if it is not burned. Different people have different ideas about that. Sometimes ten, sometimes 15, or 20 bodies are burned at this ghat every day. I personally average about two or three a day.

Ashram Life

Interview with a mahant
Udasim Sthan ashram, Varanasi

This ashram is about 300 years old. It was built by Baba Pritam Das Ji. He established this religious society. Our goal is to preach religion, to give teaching, and to provide housing facilities for pilgrims. We also help the nation in times of emergency, and so on. This is a Hindu ashram, and we preach sanatan dharm. We don’t preach any one sectarian idea, but rather human-ness. Our sect is called the Udasim sect, and we are the oldest. Our name Udasim refers to the idea of becoming limitless by union with the supreme god, Brahma.

Usually, about 25 or 30 people live here. They are not all sadhus. Some are students and some are sants — saints. We do not take any payment from students. It doesn’t matter which particular god these students worship. Our goal is simply to teach Sanskrit. [So an atheist is not admitted?] How can an atheist find a place here? You yourself know the traditions of our gurus which has been with us since ancient times. We have rules in our ashram, and anybody who stays here and studies should obey the rules. The rules for our students include being present during the artis and being involved in the service of the ashram in any way, as they have time. There are several kinds of works of service and a student is free to do any of them, but they are exempt from service during examination time. We don’t teach any other subject besides Sanskrit. We have a dormitory for our students, and some of them stay here also. Other students stay at Dindayal Nagar and at Kabir Nagar.

During our artis, one leader chants the mantras and the assembled people repeat after him together. So our prayers are not individual, but corporate. This is a sanatan dharm place, so of course we have many gods. Mostly we worship the five-fold deity. So we do the mantras of all of them, but our main ones are Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. We take all three of these as the basis of how we function. In the prayers that we perform, all the names of the gods are featured.

As far as permanent residents of the ashram are concerned, we have four managers, but they are transferable. Their authority is equal. The sadhus and sants are people who are always wandering. Several sants from Benares have come. They know that this ashram exists here, so they feel a desire to come to this place. We have ashrams all over the country, and from those places also, people come with the idea of making a pilgrimage to Benares. There are facilities for them if they stay. We don’t give facilities to any and all pilgrims, but only to those who are from other places where we have our ashrams, and if they have an introduction letter from a resident of our ashram at their home-place, we give them facilities free of cost.

Many people of all types come to our ashram. A large number come from philosophy departments. For example, Kamlakar Mishra Ji, from the philosophy department, comes here. His students also come here. One is from Germany and one from Switzerland. So, several of his students come. He is my guru ji, and he teaches me. I go to him for instruction. Some of his Ph.D. students come here too. We don’t think about whether you are a foreigner and we are Indians, or whether you are a Hindu or not. Such things have no meaning for us. Anyone can come, but they must be in submission to the rules.

We are really more of a religious society than strictly an ashram. So we do not see this as a place for living out a life-stage of spiritual search. No one can stay here for his whole life. The work of a society is only to arrange things. But there are four stages in the life of each sadhu in our place. It’s not necessary to be in your fourth stage of life. You can take sanyas even from childhood. But one is not allowed to be married.

Women are allowed in our society, but there cannot be marriage between our men and our women, nor can they live together. In actuality, there is no one who is a true brahmacharya. No one is celibate in their imagination. It’s like a chink in one’s armor, which can happen in anyone’s body. In your body, there are ten senses, and each sense has a chink in its armor. Through every sense, you can receive encouragement [to become sensual]. So really, no one is a true brahmacharya.

The reason we don’t keep women with us is because if we did, from time to time we would lose our minds. The strength to keep firm isn’t there. What we need is to become hardened because usually when a woman comes near, so does softness and tenderness. So then we are not able to perform our religious duty. Because, you see, a woman’s heart is not hardened. It is soft and tender. It’s not just that she tempts you, but her softness conditions you also to become soft if you are attached to her. Women can stay here as pilgrims for one or two days, but not on any extended basis.

There are people here who have no interest in the knowledge of books. They are tapasvis. Such a man is Bankim Baba. There are three other types here: teachers, hans, and param hans. For these three groups, learning is important, whereas for a tapasvi, the only thing that matters is to be a roaming ascetic. I cannot move from being a kutichar to being a hans or a param hans. To be one of those, one has to start on a separate track from the very beginning and follow a different kind of practice. Being a hans or a param hans is a very difficult thing to achieve. That’s why you have to start early, and you should not go into management. Changing from one stream to another is not possible because one’s mentality gets conditioned from the very beginning. We administrators are here to organize things for the roamers and those who are hans and param hans. There are many ashrams in Benares, but they may not meet the needs of the roaming sadhus, so we administrators have to take care of them.

[Do the hans and param hans teach pilgrims?] That is usually up to them. We cannot do anything to make them teach others. The progress of hans and param hans is such that through long years of effort, they reach the stage of becoming a hans or a param hans. Not everyone can achieve this. If a man does achieve it, then he is not likely to want to remain in the company of other people. Rather, he usually prefers lonely, remote places. Someone who seeks to get close to a hans or param hans can receive teaching from him, but the student has to prove himself worthy to be taught by such a great person.

You know that the smoking of hashish does go on here. It is a part of our life, but not everyone does it. I myself, for instance, do not smoke hashish. Roaming sadhus have freedom from responsibility, so they can afford to smoke hashish. Such people smoke, although there is no compulsion about it. One doesn’t have to smoke. There is no religious rule that forbids it either. Kutichars don’t have the freedom to smoke. There are those who are heavily involved in study, and others practice yoga, while still others do some other type of religious practice. And for all of these, drugs are forbidden. [Concerning the effects of smoking] Well, it’s smoking. You know what smoking does. It’s not good for the health. As far as ordinary food is concerned, those sorts of things are not dangerous. After all, they are ordinary, every day things. If you consider them as drugs, they are not the sort of drugs from which you come down. But concerning food, you have to consume those things.

We are living in the Kal Yug, and in this age the most important thing is the system of food. It is very necessary for us to eat. Even if we miss food for one day, it will create problems and make us weak. We won’t be able to get up and walk, and we will hardly feel that we have any life in us. In earlier ages, there was vital life in people’s breath or in their bones. But in this age, there is no life in our bodies, unless we eat at least some food. For this reason, that drug [referring to food] is very necessary. There is no doubt that food is a type of drug, but it is a necessary drug. If you don’t eat, the fullness of your face will begin to disappear in only one day.

In terms of my own spirituality, I took sanyas at a very young age, when I was three or four years old. I received inspiration from my parents to do this. I was offered to Guru Maharaj Ji. My guru is Shriman Purushottam Das Ji. He is from our ashram in Delhi. When I left home as a child, I stayed in his ashram in Delhi for about ten years. I still follow the instructions he gave me then, and I have to do that for always. Right now I am under the authority of our society and I cannot give diksha to anybody, nor can I make any disciples. There is no way of predicting if and when I will become a guru. There is no set pattern. If I achieve worthiness sometime by some means, then one can talk about it. But now I have no proper response to give you. I can’t really say if I have any ambition to be a guru.

As far as being inspired to be a guru, one can receive inspiration from either bhagvan or Guru Maharaj Ji. Actually, in our place, we give great importance to the guru, and not that much importance to bhagvan. Bhagvan is in his own place, and the guru is in his own place. The one who comes one time to the guru, then according to our Hindu sanatan dharm, he has to completely dedicate himself to his guru. Whatever remains for us in life, the guru is all of that to us. If he says, “Jump in a ditch,” we jump. If he says, “Burn yourself,” we burn ourselves. If he says, “Remain hungry,” we remain hungry. So there is no importance given to bhagvan here, because our guru is our bhagvan. The word guru is “gu” plus “ru.” Gu means darkness and ru means light. So, one who is able to remove darkness and bring us into the light, he is a guru. So whether I am capable or worthy of being a guru or not, I cannot say of myself that I have found the light. Even after becoming a gyani, one’s greatest human-ness is expressed through admitting only ignorance. You can only know the extent of a guru’s power if you go and experience it yourself People have only come to you as a guru when they have seen that there is something special about your spiritual leadership.

This sort of thing is not described in books. They do not give us understanding about gauging the spiritual power of somebody. That is a spiritual thing, something that comes through experience. Books are written by people and they only write what they have experienced. Someone who is truly spiritual cannot describe that in a book. One has to find out through one’s own experience. A book can give you a testimony about the writer’s feelings, but it cannot give you the feeling itself. That you have to gain experientially. Is there any shortage of gurus and spiritual leaders in Benares? Go around and see for yourself. So many gurus and saints are roaming around, and such knowledgeable people are here. But none of them give you their experience second-hand. You have to experience those things yourself. These people don’t look very great or knowledgeable, but they are. Their ordinariness and humility are the badges by which they are recognized. This is the mark of our Indian culture.

In terms of the definition of a guru, you will not find in Allahabad the type of guru that you find in Benares, because here, all are gurus. [When asked to speak words of his own experience so that the interviewer, as a new learner, could understand, he replied thus ...] Just going around and asking questions of people in every lane is not going to gain you anything. You have to go to some mahapurush, who has studied much and knows a lot. Meet with such a man, gain merit in Kashi. Gain experience.

You should read Indian philosophy, and learn what it’s all about. There are only two kinds of philosophy: Indian and Western, and there is a great difference between them. In Western philosophy, they only pay attention to sakshatkar. But our philosophy pays attention to past, present and future. Western philosophy only pays attention to “is”, but they don’t care about “was”. But the point is, if “was” did not exist, then where did “is” come from? This is how our swami ji explained it to us in a seminar at BHU (Benares Hindu University). Because “was” was, we can have “is”. If you want to know Indian culture, you read Indian philosophy. Get the latest theses written by philosophers at BHU. This will help you to understand. But better still, after reading, you should enter into experience. It is one thing to read books, and another thing to put into practice what they say. Spirituality comes from practice, not from books.