Sin, Salvation, and the Gods

Interview with a devotee
near the Golden Vishvanath Temple, Varanasi


I am 16. 1 belong to a Brahmin family from Varanasi. This is one of the holiest cities of Hinduism. What makes it holy is the temple of Shiva, this temple. Our family has lived in Benares for the last 300 years. This city is 3,000 years old. I want to stay in Benares. Delhi and Bombay are running cities. People are running like the Japanese. When Japanese come here, they can’t stay in one place. If they want to see a temple, they see the temple and then they just run. They don’t have time to put on their shoes. They take their shoes in hand and just run away. They think that maybe someone will catch them or will try to take their money, or try to sell them something. So these people don’t have time. If, in Delhi, you stand somewhere and ask anyone for directions to a place, they don’t have time to tell you. If it is Bombay they want money for telling you the way. I have seen other cities, like Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta, but I have never found any as good as Benares.

Here, people are happy. You can see that if someone is sleeping somewhere, they sleep for a long time. If he goes to sit on a ghat, then he is just sitting there for six or seven hours. Always they don’t worry. It’s normal to worry for family, for life or for food, but after that, people are happy. You can find people who will talk to you. But in other places, they are happy in themselves. For one man, the whole world is himself. He is busy in himself. But here, people want to be with others. I can’t say about beggars whether they are happy or not. Maybe I am also not happy. Food, clothing, family — these can’t make you happy. You have to feel happy on the inside. If they think they are happy, then they are happy. I cannot say whether someone is sad or happy. I might say that you are happy, but the fact may be that you are sad inside. Some people have to beg, so they are beggars. If some time I have to beg, then I will beg. I think it is possible to change [beggars]. Someone can help them, but I cannot say to someone, “Go and help him.” First I have to go and help them. I am trying to do what I can. What more can I do? I cannot clean the world by getting rid of them. I cannot throw them out. They are everywhere, a big quantity. Everywhere you can find beggars. It’s difficult to root them out.

You know the Shiva temple? This temple [pointing to the golden-domed temple across from the shop] was under our family. My father was the owner of this temple, but in 1983 there was trouble. Some people stole the gold from inside and the public demanded too much. So now this temple is under the government’s control. There is much income in the temple. A lot of people come from all over India. It is an important temple for Hindus. They bring a lot of offerings to Shiva. So the government thought, “If we get the temple, we will have much money from the temple.” So now the temple is under the government and all the income goes to the government. Before, we were living on the income of the temple. We had our food, our money and our property from the temple. Now, everything goes totally to the government. We get nothing from it. This has been the case for the last ten years.

We have a case in the supreme court against the government. There was a scandal in the temple when gold was stolen. Then the government told the people that our family was not enough to mange the temple. My family was managing the temple very well and the people are now not satisfied with the government system. After we lost everything, we started this business. That was three years ago, in 1991. We bought this ourselves, the government did not help us. They don’t want to help us. So now among the local people, nobody goes inside the temple. You have to ask the people and they will tell you the same thing. Maybe some are not totally with us, but mostly they will agree. Now they go to other temples. There are many other important temples as well which are not very famous, but still, they are important. So people believe in Shiva. If someone believes in God, then for them a stone is God. But if you don’t believe, even if God is standing in front of you, you will say it’s nothing. So they go to different temples, not to this one.

The lingam of Shiva which is in this temple is called the jyoti lingam. There are only 12 such lingams in the whole of India. There are 12 “most important” places for Hindus all over the world. This is one of them. That’s why it’s very, very important. This one is called the Vishvanath temple. Most of the people come this way to visit the Kashi Vishvanath. Also, this is an old city, situated on the banks of the Ganga, and it has good ghats where people can bathe easily. But now it is not so important. At one time it was very important. There were many schools, temples and ashrams. Very gentle-cultured people used to live here. People were coming from all over the world to learn things from them. Geniuses were here. But it is not in the same condition now. It is also getting modern, which means that its importance is decreasing.

Maybe sometime this will also become an economic center, and everyone will be busy here for money. Before, there were people such as sadhus, sants, mahatmas, and sages — people like that. People used to enjoy ganja and bhang. They were happy. They used to pray to Shiva. So the people of India used to place great importance on coming here to visit these spiritual men, where great souls lived. Everyone wanted to come to this place. So it was like a tradition. If their grandfather came, then they also wanted to come. But people who follow the tradition today and come here, they find it’s nothing like it used to be. But now it’s changed. There are shops here, houses here, hotels here and businesses here. Then they go home and say, to their son or grandson, “I am not going to go there again.” Gradually, people have stopped coming. There are fewer and fewer people, compared to the past.

Still people come to some places in large numbers. Like in Allahabad, there is the sangam where the Maha Kumbh is held every twelve years. About one million people come there every day during that time. Every sixth year, there is a little Kumbh. Lots of people come for that too. I myself have been to the Maha Kumbh, three or four years ago. There was nothing to see there, just people all around. The whole earth was covered. You could only see people. And if you went to bathe in the river, you could hardly see the water. There were so many people all around. I just went to take a holy dip in the sangam. When we were coming back, it was very difficult to make our way through the sea of people. But we came out somehow. It was a good experience to see so many people together. It was busy, but I felt good. The whole atmosphere there was holy and everyone showed an acceptance from their heart, of the camp. It was an emotional experience, being able to take a holy dip there and get a lot of punya. This is the opposite of sin, and they go to collect it, to reserve a seat in heaven. If you do a lot of sins in life, you are going to book a seat in hell.

Now, this is a holy month. There is special worship of Shiva in this month. This is the month of savan. The rainy season, monsoon, starts in this month. From all over the country they come by foot, pilgrims. They come to this temple and they go to Badrinat, in the mountains. These are the pilgrim places. The Kashmiri militants have created some problems for pilgrims, so they cannot go to Amarnat. They said to the government, “If you don’t give us something,” like they were blackmailing the government. “If you do not do this or that for me, then we will not let any pilgrims come to Amarnat. We will stop them in the middle and kill them. It’s like that.” So, people come to this temple from all over India, but the local people go to other places, because they don’t want to come here.

Now our family goes to this temple because we believe in Shiva. It is not a question of money or property, or of wanting gold. We believe in Shiva, we go to Shiva. When we pray we ask for good luck. We believe, and Shiva gives us good luck. In front of you, we are sitting here in this place of Shiva. Those who know some system, some method of praying, they go to Shiva and practice this method. They chant some hymns, some mantras. For others, it is different. They don’t know anything, they just believe. They just pray to Shiva, saying, “Oh Shiva, you are great. Do this for me.” They believe Shiva arranges everything for them. It depends on the people as to what offering they bring. Some may bring lots of offerings. They may offer gold or much money to the temple. But if someone comes and they don’t have very much, they bring flowers, some sweets, some incense sticks, and they offer these to Shiva. They bring some Indian scents like chandan and offer these to Shiva. The offerings may be taken to the priest’s house where they are eaten or used there. Or if the cleaners of the temple throw the used offerings onto the roof, if there is something edible in that, then the monkeys eat. The rest goes to the Ganges.

It’s not necessary to go to the temple in order to pray to Shiva. But people go there and they think that is Shiva. Something visible is there. You can pray out in wild or remote areas, or you can go searching for the place of Shiva. But still, people go to the temple to pray. There are many gods. It is written in the Rig Veda, the oldest book of the world written in Sanskrit, that there are spirits of brahma, the brahma who created the whole world. In the Rig Veda it is written that we have 84 billion gods and goddesses. So it is not possible to pray to whomever we want. We have some main gods and goddesses. Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, these are the three most important. The way we choose which god to worship comes from generations. It is family tradition that was started a long time ago, maybe in the tenth generation, further back from us. These ancestors started worshipping Shiva, so we worship Shiva. If you go to Bengal, then you will find that the Bengali people are devotees of power, Durga and Kali. These are the goddesses of power. And they are called shakt. Shakti means power, and so they are called shakt.

We can change to a different deity if we want, but for that we need a diksha. Any respected guru can give us diksha and knowledge. He could get us into the worship of that god. Then we will be able to pray there. There is no problem with switching gods as far as my family is concerned, because the gods are all the same. We follow Shiva, but that doesn’t mean that we fight with those who follow Vishnu or Brahma. We pray to everyone. We go to Brahma temples or Vishnu temples, but Shiva is still the main god for us. Like people have a family doctor or a family lawyer, so also they have a family god. So our family god is Shiva. So we prepare everything we are going to start or do by first praying to Shiva. There are special days for worship, but also many people go every day and pray, three times a day. It’s like that. I don’t do that. but others do. We can pray in the house. Those who are able to go to a temple can do so. Not every one is so lucky that they have a temple in the side of their house [the shopkeeper’s home and shop is located directly across the narrow street from the temple]. So they pray in the house. Many people have a temple inside their house, so they can worship there. But if someone is not able, they can go to the temple. We are able to go to the temple because it is in the side of our house. I go to the temple once a week. That’s on Monday, the day of Shiva.

Every day in the morning, after taking a bath, we pray to the sun and we pray to the river Ganga. In order to get blessing for a good day, we pray to all the gods. In the night, before sleeping, we read a few parts of the Ramayana. We do the reading together, everybody, as a family. It’s like a song, the Ramayana. A few people are reading together and it sounds nice. That’s what people think who don’t understand. The reason is that it looks nice. It is difficult to understand. If you are reading the Ramayana and someone doesn’t know, it is difficult to understand. It is written in the avadhi language, the language of the Ayodhya area. We can understand it because we’ve been reading it for a long time. The person who taught us to read it also told us the meanings. My father and my grandfather teach me. It comes like that. My mother also teaches.

In festivals, during special times of worship, or sometimes for a pilgrimage, we go as a family. Sometimes we go on a pilgrimage to Rameshvaram. It’s in the South, at the southern tip of India. There is a Shiva temple there. In the North also, in the mountains of the Himalaya, we have gone to Kailash. It is the place of Shiva, where Shiva lives. And in the West there is a place called Dvarka, the place of Krishna. Krishna built this city there. Now people believe that it is under the sea, and they go there. And in the East, there’s a place called Kamrug Ka Makhya, in Assam. That’s also very famous, and people go there. In the whole country, there is a different place in each of the four directions. These were founded by Shankaracharya. He was the man who tried to unite all the people. He tried to create unity among all the Hindus, so he founded all four pilgrim places in the East, West, North and South. All Hindus have to go to these places. Those who are able surely do go. We go often as a family.

[Concerning the small shrine in the shop similar to a miniature god-house.] These are like shrines. They are placed in shops. This one is of Ganesh. So that is the place of Ganesh and Lakshmi. Lakshmi is the goddess of wealth, and you know that Ganesh is the god of wisdom and good luck. So people put them in their shops for good luck. They have to give them a place, so they make it in the shape of a small temple or shrine and put it there. This is so that we may have blessing on our business, and we pray to them every day. Before starting business early in the morning, we pray to them, asking them to give us a good day. When we pray, we use mantras.

We believe the gods hear us because we believe that we have God inside us. Everybody has God inside. If we speak something, we hear ourselves, and so God is hearing that. The reason we don’t pray to ourselves is because we cannot see inside. If we could see inside, then we would be God. So if I’m not able to see inside, I have to make a form of what is inside me. We make a form in front of us and we say, “Oh, this is the one that is inside me. Okay, you are there, so listen.” We believe that he is inside, but we see him also in front of us. Many people do not worship any images or statues. Everyone has his own method. It is our culture. We have statues, so we pray to them. Sometimes we have symbols, such as the Shiva lingam, and we pray to it. That symbol actually becomes a god. Oh yes, if that is a symbol of God, that is God.

As far as my hopes are concerned, I hope for a good life. You yourself know what is a good life — just to get a joyful life, with blessings from the gods, that they won’t get angry but will give us good luck, that they will give us guidance so we will go in the right way, that we won’t miss the way. The right way is the way that goes to God. It is a difficult way. The manner in which we recognize that way is by learning from our gurus and our parents. Yes, I too have a guru. Our gurus teach us how to go in the good way, and which goes to God. There is the way of brahmacharya. There are many different rules, which people cannot follow easily. It’s very difficult. Now, these difficult paths are not very popular. People go on any path, whichever way they want. Someone is looking to go abroad, someone is seeking to be a criminal, and someone is looking for gold. It’s like that. And the way which our guru says to go, it is very difficult to go on that way. Sometimes it’s to leave one’s house or one’s family.

The way to decide which path is right is to use our own minds. If we feel on the inside that it’s the right way, then it’s the right way, because some people who are going on the wrong way, they will feel one day that it is the wrong way. It depends on me. Others can guide me, but they cannot pull me. If I have bad luck, then even if I try 100 times or 1,000 times, I will not be able to find the right way, if I believe in luck. Many people do not believe in luck. They say, “It’s nothing. We can do anything by relying on ourselves.” But they never got a good time in their lives, because they did not have good luck. They start anything and it goes bad.

[During this segment of the interview, numerous bells began to ring. They are used for waking up the god for his lunch time.] Now it is 12 o’clock and this is the lunch time of Shiva. So the priests offer to Shiva rice, dal, vegetables, fruits, and milk for him to have for lunch. Probably you can hear the sound of mantras and hymns. People believe that Shiva is always in a happy mood. Sometimes he has bhang. So he is happy and sleepy. So they ring the bell, saying, “Oh Shiva, please wake up.” And after that, they start saying whatever they want. When they pray, sometimes it is a request, “Oh Shiva, give me this.” They start that after ringing the bell. Shiva is usually sleeping in the night. Early morning, around 4 o’clock when the temples open, the priests pray, “Oh Shiva, please wake up. Now it’s morning, please wake up.” Also, there are special mantras for that. People make music with the oboe and drums. And so at that time, Shiva opens his eyes and people give him a bath. That’s the morning, and then this is the time of lunch.

When Shiva is asleep, he is not aware of what is going on in the world. When he is sleeping, he doesn’t know. That’s why people have to ring a bell when something goes wrong. In the United States right now, people may be thinking that Shiva is sleeping, while here we are thinking he is eating. It’s different for different people. If there are people on the moon, they will be thinking that Shiva is sleeping for six months. Who is right? Everyone is right at their place. I am not going to call somebody on the phone in the United States and say to him, “Hey, Shiva is eating now, so you also give him food.” No, I will not do that. When he wants to give Shiva food, he can do so. When I want to give Shiva food, I can do so. If I want, I can go at 2 o’clock in the night while Shiva is sleeping, and give him food. This is our trust, our belief, that Shiva is like us, eating, drinking and sleeping. If somebody in the United States is so much of a fool, then he will be thinking that you are sleeping right now in India, but if he is an educated gentleman, then he will know that it is daytime here when it is night time there. If someone doesn’t know this system, then they will think the people in the United States are waking up now, that they are also talking just like we are. But in fact, you know that they are sleeping now maybe.

[Concerning sin and salvation.] What is a sin? Anything you do which is not from your heart. Your heart says it is wrong, but you are going to do it, maybe in greediness, or with a bad attitude or under pressure. That is a sin. Everyone can do sins every day. If you do any sin, you will feel it inside yourself. You don’t have to listen to anyone telling you that you have committed a sin. You will feel it within yourself. “I did wrong, I shouldn’t have done it.” That’s a sin. But people are doing it every day. Maybe every day you make a lot of mistakes and then you feel, “That was wrong. You didn’t have to do it.” If you read the Gita, you will see that there are a lot of sins committed by the gods. Of course gods commit sins, and they have to pay for it. They get punishment. Who punishes the gods? Their souls and their hearts punish them. Sometimes when someone has done a very bad thing and their heart tells them that they have done so, then they go to commit suicide. Every god has stories about them in which they have committed sins and were punished for that. They got a hard life, a bad time. There is no god who has not committed any sins. [Further conversation, off the record, revealed that the interviewee acknowledges Christ as the only living being, physical or spiritual, who was without sin. All other beings have been corrupted by sin — gods and non-deities alike.]

How can you be saved? It is not different. We cannot help sinning. We cannot do only good things. They go together. You have to do bad as well as good. It is like day and night. If there is no darkness, then there is no importance of light. So also, if there is no sin, then there is no importance of good deeds. If you commit some little sin and then you go out and do a good deed, then people will count that as a good deed. [“Some people seem almost completely good while others seem almost completely evil. So where is the balance for them?”] There is not any balance. Others decide whether someone seems good or someone seems bad. Others have to decide that. That’s why some people give bribes to others, saying, “Balance us in terms of good and evil.”

[The interviewers asked, “How can light and darkness dwell together when light banishes darkness?”] It goes from moment to moment. Sometimes you are light, sometimes you are dark. But if there is no dark, then there is no importance of light. If there is dark, then you will feel, “Yes, now I am feeling the light inside.” So you have to keep something dark so that it can be covered up when light comes. If you have done any sin, then you will do some good things. If the gods are not free from sins, then how can we be? There are no sinners in heaven. That’s why there are two places: heaven and hell. There is a judge who will count our works, whether they are good or bad. Who is the judge? He is Dharmraj, also called Yamraj, the god of death. He takes the soul to court and there is a man there who is also a god, but he is under Dharmraj. His name is Chitragupt. He gives the total record of the life of the man, the human, who is going to die. He sees the whole record and after that, the judge decides if the soul has to go to hell or heaven.

People are counted as sinners or non-sinners based on an average of their life. Someone has big sins and someone has little sins. If someone has big sins, he has to go to hell because he is not able to cover up his sins in the next incarnation. If someone has little sins, he is sent back to earth and then has a chance to cover up his sins in the next incarnation. If I have only a little sin, then I have a chance to come back to earth and get rid of that sin as well. It will be a life in which I will seek to do all things good, so that I will get heaven. Those who come back to get rid of their little sins will not have a chance to do anything else except worship Shiva, or whatever deity they follow. And they will spend their whole lives chanting the name of God. In this way they will not have a chance to do anything, good or bad. And if they do anything, they will do it in remembrance of the name of God.

Even if they begin to do something bad and then remember the name of God, then that thing is no longer bad. Even if you are going to kill someone, before you do it, if you remember the name of God and you say, “Oh God, I am going to kill someone. Please take care of me,” then he will excuse you. But there are many people who think that God is nothing, so when they do any work, they do it on their own and do not take the name of God. That’s why it’s right for such people to go to hell. So one can be allowed to do anything if he takes the name of God before he does it, even killing or raping a woman, and such things. But the one who has the presence of mind to remember the name of God is not going to want to do such things. I don’t think he’s going to do that kind of thing. Everything is systematic. It’s not just taking the name of God in a shallow way.

Some people will chant the name of God and then kill a Muslim, but it’s not like that. It is not something to show, but rather to feel. If you take the name of God and you feel it, then it’s okay. If you feel, then you will be sincere in thinking about the god before doing any action or taking any step. Then you will not have any chance to do any bad work. Then God will guide you, and when he does, he will not bring you to the wrong way. You will go on the right way. And it’s not the right way to kill people and rape women, as everyone knows. How will you know what is bad? You will feel it when you do something bad.